The Problem with Frame Data

Comments · 243

• NI

  @ninjahedgehog5 · 2 months ago

  Frame data : ❌️<br>Safe vs unsafe : ✔️

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• FR

  @FranzRaymondGCo · 2 months ago

  What I miss from older games is that it was often pushback on block that determined if something was punishable. So you learned what you could punish just based on how far back someone was after you blocked their string.

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• TR

  @trinixjin8039 · 1 month ago

  fighting games that feel intuitive to play are always so satisfying, you feel like a protagonist in an anime, grinding his way through combat

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• OT

  @otsokarhu9695 · 2 months ago

  Can confirm, I know a LOT of Frame data because reading Dustloop is a great time for me. Almost all of that information is completely useless in actual matches. I know more about My friends&apos; main characters data than they do, and get curb stomped anyway.

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• HE

  @heavymetalmixer91 · 2 months ago

  Let&apos;s also not forget that framedata doesn&apos;t matter the same at all distances, even with moves that don&apos;t make the character move forward. A certain move X may be -5 and punishable by a fast jab, but what happens when X is blocked and the attacker isn&apos;t at the jab&apos;s range? X cannot be punished.

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• ZX

  @zxad · 2 months ago

  I&apos;m not big into fighting games but I know someone f&apos;d up when I block a hellsweep.

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• VE

  @VernulaUtUmbra · 2 months ago

  The thing I&apos;ve found with getting people into fighting games isn&apos;t that they think Frame Data is some insurmountable wall they need to climb, it&apos;s that they don&apos;t even know it exists. <br><br>Fighting games have a huge issue with how much rather crucial information like Frame Data, Hitboxes, &nbsp;and so on is completely hidden, and most people don&apos;t even know they don&apos;t know about them because of that. This is then further hurt by stuff like RISC or GUTS, game dependent mechanics, that further drive into not knowing what is going on.

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• ME

  @melvinshine9841 · 2 months ago

  Having access to frame data in-game wasn&apos;t a thing in Tekken until Tekken 7, and you had to pay money for it in that game, but the series has had ways for you to have an understanding about frame data without knowing the actual numbers. Realizing a lot of attacks have &quot;rules&quot; that you can apply to most characters without having to go through their whole move list. &quot;Hop kicks&quot; are 15 frame mids and can be punished with jabs. If a df2 launches crouchers, it&apos;s punishable on block. If a Power Crush is a mid, it&apos;s punishable on block. If a string ends with a mid, it&apos;s usually going to be unsafe. &quot;Snake Edges&quot; can be launch punished on block. There&apos;s a <b>long</b> list of &quot;rules&quot; like that, and while there are exceptions in some cases, you can apply them pretty reliably even against characters you&apos;ve never fought before.

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• DR

  @dreadgrave3379 · 2 months ago

  Yomi Hustle feels like the best-in-class tutorial for frame data and it&apos;s just baller to boot.

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• CL

  @Clout_Strife · 2 months ago

  Thank you British fighting game man

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• KR

  @Kreozot2D · 2 months ago

  Theoryfighter, your video scripts and information in them - all of it is just great. And your music taste only adds to it.

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• FR

  @FrMZTsarmiral · 2 months ago (edited)

  Great video, really nuanced look into this subject and with how the &quot;you must learn this before getting good&quot; is kind of a myth for many fighters.<br><br>I think one of the things that made frame data less prevalent in older 2d games was how they had greater pushback on block, instant throws and/or faster walk speed. This led to many interactions being more focused on how much distance was created after a block and the general speed of a move rather than specific advantage numbers. Also input buffers being less generous, making the timing more strict.<br>I&apos;d say the emphasis on pushback started to decrease around SF3&apos;s era but since parrying was a thing many interactions would be more about general timing and prediction rather than crunching down numbers.<br><br>Maybe it was with SF4 that frame data started to feel a bit more like something you &quot;had&quot; to learn due to how many links that game had, but it definitely was the case with SF5&apos;s release and how basic characters like Ryu had a VT that was focused on frame advantage and wouldn&apos;t make too much sense unless you labbed or looked at a frame data list, specially during its earlier years.<br><br>I might be wrong but I think Tekken is an outlier in which high frame data knowledge always separated the novices from the pros (VF, SC and DoA had more clear-cut dodge and parry mechanics which made frame data knowledge a bit less vital, I think) although execution was always king due to the reasons you mentioned in the vid.

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