This German Stealth Submarine Just Made Every Other Sub Obsolete

Comments · 2.1K

• JA

  @jasonb2928 · 2 months ago

  As a Canadian I'm here to figure out what I just bought.

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• TH

  @Thurthof5 · 4 months ago

  &quot;I don&apos;t know why they would overdesign...&quot; <br><br>Have you never met a German?

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• VL

  @vladh5192 · 4 months ago

  &quot;Why would they over-design a fathometer...&quot;<br><br>Germany: &quot;You must be new here...&quot;

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• CO

  @correctiveelement · 4 months ago

  As a German, let&apos;s not forget our Norwegian partner. We&apos;re in this together.

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• MC

  @Mccree13 · 2 months ago

  Canada confirmed today they are buying 12 of theses

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• MI

  @Milaisacat · 2 months ago

  Canada announced today (July 6, 2026) that TKMS has been selected as the preferred bidder for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Program to build up to 12 Type 212CD boats for the Royal Canadian Navy.

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• SU

  @SuburbanBassRecords · 4 weeks ago

  Fun fact: the 212CD can be considered the third generation of Norwegian/German CD/bilateral submarine projects. The Kobben class (of the 1960s) was a redesign of the U205 design (designated U207) - built exclusively for Norway. In the 1980s, the Ula class represented a more radical design departure (also built for Norway alone, known as the U-210 class). <br><br>Here is a little rant based on first-principles physics, for those interested: <br><br>The increase in size/length is mainly driven by sonar acoustics: 212A were designed primarily for the Baltic/North Seas - where high-frequency sonar is the name of the game (needed to detail very noisy, brackish and complex and shallow waters). Where Norway operates submarines (Northern Norwegian Shelf, Barents Sea, shelf slopes dropping from 600 metres to 3-4 kilometres into the Norwegian Sea/North Atlantic, with massive density gradients, etc) is the low-frequency sonar domain (dropping below 100 Hz) for range. A quick calculation tells us that 100 Hz in seawater forms sonar wavelengths of ca 15 meters. You really want your flank arrays to capture 3 wavelengths (lambda) at minimum. So you want flank arrays approaching 45 meters, but you do not want to stretch them towards the &quot;skrew&quot;. <br><br>This is not something submarines in the Baltic/North Sea need to worry about (as they will be in sonar environments well above 200 Hz (wavelength below 7 meters - thus &quot;3 lambda&quot; is reached by around 20 meter flank arrays). <br><br>Thus they prioritise being small and nimble while fighting in 50-meter water depth. <br><br>The stretched 212CD allows them to listen to resolve lower frequencies without spooling out the towed array (very useful, since a favourite tactic is to sit inside boundary currents with the motor turned off - that does not allow for towing the array - one must move at least at a few knots to keep the array straight. <br><br>Regarding the ORCCA - it is said to have about the largest ray-tracing computing power on any submarine (since in the North Atlantic/Arctic sounds are defracted massively across boundary currents, the sharp density gradients where warm saline tropical waters smash into cold and fresh Arctic waters, and the unique conditions where the thermocline is inverted. This is the opposite computing problem to Baltic/North Sea submarines have (living in an extremely noisy shallow sound &quot;echoshamber&quot; - requiring them to use their compute for signal processing (to separate bouncing echoes from true signal.<br>In terms of ASW warfare, the biggest difference on the planet is what Sweden/Germany/soon Poland) needs in the North Sea and the Baltic Sea. <br><br>Along the Norwegian continental shelf - the water volume of the entire Baltic Sea passes by ca every 15-20 minutes. It is very dynamic. It is also a very unique place on the planet - since the entire global ocean conveyor circulation is powered by processes north of the GIUK-gap. This makes &quot;NADW&quot; (North Atlantic Deep Water). It also does radical things to the global &quot;SOFAR channel&quot; (where most of open ocean submarine warfare takes place). SOFAR is found between 300 and 1000 meters of water depth (as a rule of thumb) globally. But when the North Atlantic warm and salty water masses start to interact with the cold and fresher Arctic water masses, the warm and salty waters flow northward, while sinking under the Arctic surface waters. Thus, one gets an &quot;inverse thermocline&quot;. <br><br>Let me try to explain: Globally, one has a normal thermocline (water is warmest on the surface, heated by the sun, and it gets colder with depth. This is basically what defines the SOFAR channel since sound waves in the ocean diffract (bend) towards cold water. So if a submarine sits in the SOFAR channel &quot;anywhere on the planet) - the submarine noise will bend away from the surface water, where ASW frigates and helicopters with dipping sonars listen.<br>Because &quot;hot water&quot; (&quot;the Gulf Stream&quot; is taking a shallow dive under Arctic water in the Norwegian Sea - the SOFAR channel hits the surface (colder water on the surface is bending subsea noises upwards). But it also comes with other peculiarities: there are not just &quot;horizontal meeting points&quot; - one also gets deep &quot;Atlantic-Arctic frontal walls&quot; going into the deep. These create huge walls for sound propagation. In addition, one has massive amounts of sound from the dynamics (draining the Baltic Sea every 10-20 minutes equals a &quot;pretty big river&quot;. <br><br>For comparison: All the rivers on the planet move around 1.2 SV of water per second. The North Atlantic/Norwegian Current (the Northern branch of the &quot;Gulf Stream&quot;) pushes 4-8 Sverdrup of water every second. Yes - it makes sound by friction and massive eddy-formation processes. While it is far away from the volume transport in the Subtropical Gyre (Between Florida and Spain - very roughly), it becomes very narrow up North due to the density gradients becoming sharper. <br><br>(I am telling you - geophysics is super fun - OK - I know I converted nobody) <br><br>I hope I have indicated why Norway always were so extremely picky, not having been happy with a &quot;standard design&quot; since the 1960s, even if both Sweden and Germany have been building world-class hunter killers since forever.<br>I hope I have also hinted at why Canada chose the 212CD. Norway is not typically known as a global superpower, except for one thing: Oceanography. It makes sense; we are known for Arctic exploration, we are really interested in fish (as a massive export article since we were Vikings), we were tasked with tracking Soviet strategic submarines from the Barents, into the Norwegian Sea, towards the GIUK gaps 60 years ago - and when you want to use Seismics to 3D-map deep-ocean oil- and gas reservoirs - that is a LOT of motivation. In terms of oceanography, Norway is standing out similarly to winter Olympic medalists per capita. <br><br>Canada is not exactly like Norway in terms of hydrography, but the &quot;problem&quot; is the same. Highly compressed boundary currents, Continental shelves that are not like shelves at all, the bathymetry is more like &quot;drowned fiords&quot;, upside-down thermoclines (and SOFAR channels), shared issues with ice reflection. Our Baltic friends have the same issue with ice - but the Arctic ice is multi-year, and it is circulating. So while being different (both on the Atlantic and Pacific side), hydrodynamically, Norway and Canada are sharing the same outliers closer than any other nations (we do have some overlaps with Chile, and to a lesser degree with Argentina). The outlier focus becomes more articulated when we remember that the UK/France/the US (and soon Canada) focus on global-reach nuclear submarines, notconventional environmental specialists. I hope this gives some comfort to excellent Korean friends. It is not you that are weird - it is our freaky sonar/hydrography environment that is weird up here. For anyone living with &quot;normal thermoclines&quot;, wanting a multi-role submarine (which is a true global market if you forget the tiny area of Arctic and the Baltic Sea as massive outliers), KSS3 is a sure winner. I will say, however - submarines are still extremely bespoke (if one leaves the &quot;go anywhere nuclear types). <br><br>No strategic submarine is designed for &quot;our conditions&quot; (or the spectacular, almost upside-down conditions of the Baltic Sea). Strategic submarines must by default be designed for the &quot;global SOFAR channel behaviour&quot; - since it would be strange to design a strategic submarine to max out its design outside Norway/Canada or in the Baltic-/North Sea. Those are absolutely tiny areas of the planet. <br><br>Oh - must remember to say: I am not saying that a 212A/Swedish Blekinge/Gotland class/a Dutch/French Orka class (or a US Virginia or UK Astute class nuclear attack) submarine is instantly useless up north. I am sure a 212CD will still be useful off the German coastline in the Baltic Sea.<br>Baltic Sea. <br><br>ASW is an extremely marginal &quot;sport&quot; especially for submarines. Surface ASW ships/helicopters and aircraft have the luxury to change their listening and pinging frequencies. That big tube underwater does not have that luxury. <br><br>A final observation (as a civilian research geophysicist). Go to a meeting like AGU (or look up journals like Science and Nature) and ponder why Norwegians and Canadian nerds always push out the most radical keynotes on &quot;isopycnal high-resolution coastal ocean models&quot;. <br><br>They are very useful for fish and things. But we must also remember that we dive submarines (even conventional D/Es) for days. You&apos;d better want to have the best ray-tracing algorithms and the best isopycnal ocean models on board, since analysing sonar with wrong Arctic density gradients will move target estimations by literal miles. <br><br>There is peace - our German friends figured out the AIP drive train and systems well before VW got their diesel algorithms catastrophically wrong in public!

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• DA

  @Dan-xo9ly · 4 months ago

  If submariners from the 40&apos;s saw this thing their minds would be blown.

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• WY

  @wylatron · 2 months ago

  TKMS won the contract. Canada is getting these subs

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• RC

  @RCAFVet38 · 2 months ago

  Canada here.🇨🇦🍁 Just an update to let you know that Canada has chosen the TKMS 212CD as the preferred supplier for our new submarine fleet of up to 12 boats. I also believe that our boats will be using lithium ion batteries instead of lead acid. This is great news for our navy and for Canada as a whole. It also strengthens our ties with NATO and Europe. Again, great news for Canada, and Europe.

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• CO

  @ColinJ88 · 4 months ago

  Shooting drones into the air from torpedo tubes, in order to attack hilos or provide reconnaissance, would be interesting.

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• PA

  @pablovonyaletown5997 · 4 months ago

  The latest German Type 212CD (Common Design) submarines, being built for the German and Norwegian navies by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), are equipped with advanced lithium-ion batteries rather than traditional lead-acid ones. 

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