Why Autoclaves Are Holding Aviation Back.

Comments · 1.1K

• ME

  @MentourNow · 1 year ago · pinned

  Go to <a href="https://ground.news/mentour">https://ground.news/mentour</a> to get worldwide coverage on Boeing, aviation safety and more! Subscribe through my link for 40% off unlimited access this month.

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• ZO

  @zoastro · 1 year ago

  Just wait and see when Cessna enlarges the Caravan to compete with the 737 and 320. It will be glorious!!!

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• ID

  @Idonotwanthandle · 1 year ago

  Smaller Dreamliner is a Napliner.

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• JK

  @jkberner · 1 year ago

  Retired Boeing engineer here who worked on all the new airplane programs mentioned here. Boeing developed expertise in out-of-autoclave resin infused structure on 787 flaps and wing control surfaces with Boeing Aerostructures Australia leading the effort. Airbus has similar production experience with A350 aft pressure bulkhead. Bombardier&apos;s C-series/A220 wing is also resin infused. Airbus has been using thermoplastics since the A340, where it was used in the wing fixed leading edge J-panels.

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• EA

  @earlturner8174 · 1 year ago

  Scaling down the Dreamliner is a great idea. And to save weight, they could make it out of balsa wood.

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• NA

  @nanotyrannus5435 · 1 year ago

  Last year at ILA Airbus showed off a direct welding joint for aluminium fuselage sections which saves hundreds of kilos per aircraft by making all the extra protections and strengthening parts used on bolted joints obsolete. They won&apos;t have developed that for nothing, and it should scale VERY well. My prediction is that Airbus will significantly increase the weight efficency of their aluminium construction by using this method and similar ones on any new narrowbody design, allowing for a cheap and scalable production of much of the fuselage structure. <br>The wings might still be carbon fiber reinforced plastic, but I bet the fuselage won&apos;t.

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• YE

  @Ye-Olde-Veteran-FR · 1 year ago

  Petter -- in my late 70s, I won&apos;t fly on anything OTHER than composite jets, because the jet lag from them, on long haul flights, is SO INCREDIBLY LESS &nbsp;(due to the much higher humidity and lower cabin altitudes. &nbsp;Just wait until you&apos;re my age, you&apos;ll see!!

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• DA

  @Daverotherham · 1 year ago

  Cube-square law. Resizing a design messes with strength/weight ratios, so you can’t just rescale, you need to redesign

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• BL

  @blatherskite9601 · 1 year ago

  You think 4 to 8 years a long time in development to service? My first real job was part of the safety case development for Hinckley Point C nuclear power station, a development of existing designs. It&apos;s not in service yet, and I left that employer in 1990... so, over 35 years and not a watt generated! That&apos;s a long development - almost a whole career.

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• JF

  @jfmezei · 1 year ago

  When Airbus introduced the A320 in late 1980s, &nbsp;it also got a huge innovation: robot rivet installation which really reduced cost/time needed to make duselages, and gave Airbus a huge competitive edge over Boeing laborious 737 manual assembly/riveting. &nbsp;<br>After Boeing launched the 787, Airbus&apos;s first response was essentially a 330neo , and they argued that aluminium is about same weight as carbon fibre and that production costs are lower and less incertainty, but Stephen Hudvar Hazy told Airbus to get lost unless they built a totally new plane, hence the A3560 &nbsp; (and Airbus still ended up building a 330 neo because the market for more affordable aircraft was large). &nbsp;And the 3509 was more conservative since it built a conventional fuselage with ribs/stringers but with composite instead of aluminium panels riveted to them <br><br>Composites allow you to build intricate 3d shapes not possible with metal. Suspect you will see fortcoming planes maintain the hybrid approach of metal and composites depending on where in the plane they go. &nbsp; <br><br>One last issue is Boeing management. The 787 was done at a time where Boeing went to court to have Airbus fised for illegal subsidies for the A380. It couldn&apos;t be seen accepting huge donations from US government, so structure the programme to be outsourced to a whole bunch of suppliers who each got their subsidies , so Boeing had more or less clean hands (except for NASA funding the R&amp;D for all composite fuselage). &nbsp; &nbsp;The result was a disaster because Boeing got inexperienced contractor such as Voight who were unable to deliver. &nbsp; (Boeing ended up having to buy them and put its own peoplle there and this is where &nbsp;final assembly now happens, as well as fuselage plug production (the original contratc for Voight). <br>One would need to know whether Boeing&apos;s ramp challenges are due to the design of aircraft or whether it is legacy for its /outsource production&quot; model first used this extensively for the 787.

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• EL

  @EleanorPeterson · 1 year ago

  <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dufx-P9BaA&amp;t=760">12:40</a> - It might be worth mentioning that autoclaves don&apos;t just use high pressure and heat to cure and temper composites; they also use a low pressure vacuum &apos;bagging&apos; system to extract air from uncured resin, eliminate voids, and compact multiple laminations to conform to moulds, jigs and formers in a manner which can&apos;t be achieved by applying pressure externally.<br><br>Vacuum-bagging and resin-infusion techniques form the basis of making composite (laminated) structures without an autoclave and are useful in that there is no theoretical limit to the size of object than can be formed - all you need is enough polythene sheeting and an efficient vacuum.<br><br>Autoclave-wise, the low pressure cycles are at least as important as the high pressure heated ones. As Beavis and Butt-Head might say, &quot;Whoa, dude! Autoclaves really suck!&quot; 💨😁 Huh-huh huhhuhhuh...

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• TO

  @todortodorov6056 · 1 year ago

  Just how crazy it is: The Boeing 737 entry into service was in 1968 and the Airbus A320 in 1988, 20 years later. And still with 20 years head start, Airbus managed to take over the lead. Go Airbus!

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