Tenkar's Tavern is Wrong About Milestone Leveling

Comments · 119

• NO

  @NoOneofConsequence1759 · 2 days ago (edited) · pinned

  To Everyone: This video spun way out of control, regarding the comments. And unlike most of my videos, I cannot provide a detailed reply to everyone. But whether you agree with my position or not, I really do appreciate the engagement and the civil debate. But now I think I need to do a follow-up video, to more fully explain why I now use milestone leveling, instead of XP tracking, like what I used to do. So, watch for that video to be uploaded soon!

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• DE

  @devonsharkey414 · 3 days ago

  In a sense old modules did have milestone leveling - it was just disguised as gold based experience.  I was looking through Night Below, 2nd edition, and at various intervals there were very deliberate treasure dumps.  This is in other longer, campaign form, adventures as well. It was enough treasure to level most PCs in it.  It was, essentially, milestone leveling.

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• DI

  @diegominuti330 · 3 days ago

  I think Tenkar Is not talking about punishing recklesness, he Is talking about rewarding carefulness

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• MA

  @MachinaOpus · 3 days ago

  Ends of story arcs/modules are generally higher risk higher reward. Even without milestone, clearing the adventure, killing the big bad guy and getting the primary loot is XP more likely to pop several players over the level than a normal side quest adventure. So unintentionally basked into the equation.<br><br>Never done it but the way you described it, Milestone leveling kind of sucks for thief and benefits wizards and paladins. One thing that is kind of nice (in theory at least) is everyone training and taking down time together.

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• AN

  @anotherelvis · 1 day ago (edited)

  Those are fighting words :-)

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• AN

  @AndyAce83 · 3 days ago

  Both have a concise logic to them.<br><br>The first time as a DM this time around, I did a milestone on the first adventure, and I have regretted it ever since.<br><br>It feels... video game-y.<br><br>It’s also funny how one at the table always assumed 5e rules.<br><br>“No, that’s 5e. In 2e...”<br><br>I do prefer XP, as I can reward things like good RPG, thus encouraging new players.

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• CO

  @cowpercoles1194 · 3 days ago (edited)

  Maybe not strictly gold for xp, but there needs to be a clear incentive structure for the players to encourage exploratory play, in player driven games. &nbsp;Milestone leveling means the players often fall into playing a guessing game of &quot;what&apos;s the DM want us to do, so we can score the points&quot; and/or to unlock the next section of DM content. &nbsp;They fall into the habit of passively waiting for the DM&apos;s instructions to trigger the next milestone, instead of driving play by choosing a goal and going for it. &nbsp;For example, in a sandbox campaign with resource management, the players need to acquire funds to build a magic item, retain hirelings (including an expert sage who is researching lore for them), and maintain a base. &nbsp;They have several options (and additional quest hooks from the DM, offering treasure as a resource &amp; xp), and they decide which way to go to achieve their goals. &nbsp;<br><br>I&apos;ve found that players of more linear or storyline based games have been trained to not do this, and wait to be spoon fed the plot hook so as not to &quot;derail&quot; the DM&apos;s scripted story that has all the pre-loaded milestone awards loaded into it.

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• AN

  @anotherelvis · 1 day ago (edited)

  I personally prefer openworld adventures where milestones are not applicable. Ideally my character shouldn&apos;t be trying to complete an assignment given by the DM. He is just trying to live within a fantasy world.

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• 1S

  @1stlizard · 3 days ago

  I think it depends on the game you play. If your game revolves around storytelling, tallying experience points is not going to get them anywhere. If you are playing the earlier games that mostly revolved around going into a dungeon to kill monsters and loot things, milestone leveling is not going to achieve much either.<br><br>When I played BECMI, 80s kid D&amp;D, it was all XP all the way. When it transitioned to 2e it was still XP-based but we kind of did away with letting it hold back a story. Then 3.5 sent us in reverse and it would be kind of hard to do milestone leveling there, especially with the groups I played with. They expected that XP or you would be out one party. And that meant no free beer for a lonely DM. It was a time of college for me. Then we kind of skipped 4e, but I would say it was no different in that context.<br><br>But today, it is more likely than ever before to be a story, not a game of strategy necessarily. In such a game, milestone leveling is foreseeable. Without knowing how to call it &quot;milestone leveling&quot; it was something I think many DMs did when they felt it was right. So, it does fill a need, but so does using XP. But then there aren&apos;t enough ways to gain XP by doing other things. That would be the real middle ground, designate XP for specific milestones. Maybe make it a percentage of their XP.<br><br>In the end, it seems to become a case-by-case consideration where you must do a ratio of both.

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• UL

  @ulfhedknarthedestroyer1753 · 1 day ago

  I never thought I would live to see the day that two nerds had a reality dram show-style battle on a website that hosts video uploads.

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• JB

  @JBASH2011 · 3 days ago (edited)

  I started playing in 1977 w/ the LBBS. We had a 5 person group, we all ran our own games and played in each others games, wildly different. I almost immediately dropped gold for xp They got rewarded for smart play, and accomplishments. &nbsp;Gold for XP encourages a style of gameplay I never cared for and still don&apos;t. &nbsp;I&apos;ve even gone to just handing out &quot;levels&quot; at times. But that only works with specific player types. Most like seeing those XP awards in small chunks.

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• JA

  @jazzman51978 · 3 days ago

  I&apos;m not sure why I don&apos;t see a hybrid version of miletone and xp advocated for. Almost every video game with xp &nbsp;does this. You do get xp for gold and killing monsters, but you get big chunks for completing quests. It motivates players to do good in the world and follow the plot, and it motivates them to get treasure and defeat monsters by sword spell or wit. I use this hybrid in my home campaign.

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