This is my FAVORITE part of JRR Tolkien's writing

Comments · 684

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  @TheMarcHicks · 1 year ago

  There is magic involved, but its very soft. The key thing Gandalf does is to briefly knock out Wormtongue so he can talk to Theoden without outside interference. The other thing Gandalf uses, which is even more subtle, is the power of inspiration.

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• DA

  @dancingdroid · 1 year ago

  Gandalf has the elven ring of fire. That ring gives him the ability to rouse people, to give courage, to light a fire in people's hearts making them spring into action.

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• SE

  @selwynevonbeereskow8053 · 1 year ago

  In the book Gandalf didn't have to force Saruman out of Theoden. All that was required was to show Theoden that he still has his own free will and may use it. He is motivating people to choose themselves and find their own way. Not choosing for them and making them go his way. He was sent to Middle Earth to councel, not to lead.

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• MA

  @mariposahorribilis · 1 year ago

  Here&apos;s my take, for what it&apos;s worth. Théoden would normally have been in a vigorous old age. Because of Grima&apos;s manipulation (on Saruman&apos;s behalf) he is depressed, dispirited, distrustful, feeling no hope, feeling older than his years, but there is no actual aging spell on him. Gandalf&apos;s job and magic is to bring hope (again, something you&apos;ll find out more about as you read more.) His magic in this scene slecifically is to silence Grima, maybe also to help Théoden ignore the poison he has been pouring into his ears for so long. And Théoden gradually becomes again the man he should be, and begins to see things properly, that he is not helpless or surrounded by people he can&apos;t trust. He&apos;s not magically de-aged, he&apos;s reinvigorated. But to show all this subtle emotional change in a movie would be way more difficult, so it&apos;s made into a far more overt kind of magical battle.<br><br>I think that the multiple theories about who&apos;s the Christ figure, or equivalent figure from other cultures and religions, or whether there is one at all, brings home what Tolkien says about allegory versus applicability. He didn&apos;t write a specific character to be an allegory of Christ, but he wrote characters to whom you could apply your personal definition of Christ-like.

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• HO

  @hollythebordercollie2257 · 1 year ago

  He lifted the despair that Grima had been feeding Theoden and then Theoden discovered he wasn&apos;t as old and decrepit as he thought he was

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  @jeff-buri-jeff3716 · 1 year ago

  Tolkien preferred “applicability” to “allegory” — as he explained, applicability is about the freedom of the reader, while allegory is about the “domination of the author”

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• JA

  @JackChurchill101 · 1 year ago

  We all will - or do - suffer from Theoden&apos;s illness. <br>The feeling of getting old. Of getting slow. Of getting tired.<br>Some people will want you to calm down, to put on your slippers, to go to bed early and get up late, to stop exercising for fear of injury. <br>This is what happened in the books. Grima simply encouraged Theoden to &quot;be old&quot;. Doesn&apos;t need his sword weighing him down. Doesn&apos;t need to walk the long hall and go outside.<br>All Gandalf did was snap him out of this, and wake him from his self imposed mental prison. <br>Tolkien&apos;s message is simply &quot;don&apos;t grow old, before your time, remain the king, and live your life&quot;...<br><br>I don&apos;t think there was any explicit magic, but Gandalf&apos;s &nbsp;words have a healing and empowering quality. Like fresh air.

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  @Jamoni1 · 1 year ago

  I&apos;m currently rereading LOTR with a new perspective: music and magic are the same. &nbsp;EVERY song is a prayer. Every song is a spell.

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• CY

  @cynthiacarter9055 · 1 year ago

  I just read this chapter aloud to my kids yesterday. The thing I saw was that the &quot;leech-craft&quot; of Grima, on behalf of Saruman, seemed far less magical and more machiavellian. He didn&apos;t cast huge spells, being merely a man and not Saruman himself; he just slowly, year after year, worked on destroying Theoden&apos;s wisdom, his courage, his hope, until all that appears to remain is a bent old man. Yes, Gandalf does throw Grima to the ground so he doesn&apos;t have to battle his lies in the moment, but that doesn&apos;t erase the power of the lies already living in Theoden&apos;s mind. And yet, there are moments when Gandalf &quot;strongly suggests,&quot; almost as if speaking words of command to Theoden (but leaves their result up to Theoden, who must himself choose to accept the lifeline), to move away from the fear and darkness and out into the light. Keep in mind, Gandalf is actually wearing Narya, the Ring of Fire (one of the Three Elven Rings), given him by Cirdan the Shipwright, for the purposes of &quot;kindling hearts.&quot; I believe Gandalf is absolutely wielding that magic to stir up the embers of who Theoden remained in spite of the false cloak of old age which Grima had subtly laid upon him. But for all of Gandalf&apos;s magic, it remains Theoden&apos;s choice, to cast aside his cane and return to his people as their king, or to decide it&apos;s beyond him and to sink back into the darkness. Thankfully, his noble heart prompts him to accept the lifeline and become himself again. And yes, it feels FAR less dramatic than P. Jackson&apos;s exorcism ceremony. I can forgive Jackson his fireworks, tho, since I&apos;m not sure what Tolkien wrote would be something most cinema goers would appreciate. But I do think the book is closer to the way we find our way out of darkness in the real world. That is, with help, by taking one step towards the light and health at a time. Good video! :)

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• SU

  @suboptimaldotinc · 1 year ago (edited)

  &quot;maybe he rescited the poem to keep Gimli from tearing Grima limb from limb&quot; I love that thought! And it made me laugh because i can totally see that

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• MA

  @matthewarant377 · 1 year ago

  I think what almost every major character in LOTR struggles with is despair. It&apos;s not depression or sadness. But all characters at some point in the story have to face despair and decide to meet it with hope and loyalty to their friends.

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• KE

  @kennethpurscell · 1 year ago

  Part of the story that is often overlooked is the news. Theoden&apos;s son has been killed; his line is now at an end. And possibly his kingdom! Eomer took off on that raid on the orcs <b>against</b> orders, which is why he&apos;s imprisoned. Those orcs were traveling across Rohan pretty freely, and Eomer too might have been killed. Plus Eomer let strangers cross freely, and no one knows who they are. Even now the western army is getting shattered by Saruman&apos;s invasion and the Westfold is falling apart. Wormtongue may be lying, but it doesn&apos;t have to be much. The &quot;ill news&quot; is very ill indeed.<br><br>A lot, perhaps, like the moments just before Dunkirk? There were a lot of politicians at the time who sounded a lot like Theoden.<br><br>So allegory? No. But much like an actor uses emotional memory to convey the truth of a character, so a writer can use collective emotional memory to trigger the truth of a situation. The Ride (and rise) of the Rohirrim begins now. The movie always seemed like a deus ex machina. Tolkien didn&apos;t need it. Just a way to unmask the evil voices of appeasement.

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